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Discussion Rules
Introduction is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. This leads to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calcs, about their validity, reliability, etcetera. However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions. The listed rules are to be followed for discussions ( ), in addition to the site rules. General Rules *In the profile talk pages, please sign with your username at the end of your posts, by adding four "~" signs. *Before starting to argue in the forums, please read the logical fallacies page. *First check if a certain topic has been handled previously. Since the search function does not work properly yet (the Fandom staff are trying to fix it), you can visit the profile page of a concerned specific character, or verse/franchise/fiction, and check the "See more discussions" link at the bottom right corner of the page for tagged related topics. This usually works more easily. *Building upon the previous suggestion, make sure to add topics for the "verse" and main characters related to your forum threads, in order to make it easier for other members to find it later on. *When arguing for changing character statistics, do not assume that the staff will have in-depth knowledge about the fictional franchise in question. Make sure to explain your suggestions in a structured manner that is easy to comprehend. You will not be allowed to change any statistics, if people cannot understand what you mean. *To reiterate, when creating content revision threads, it is best to keep your suggestions as structured and simple to understand as possible, so the staff will have an easier time evaluating the text. Avoid writing upgrade threads mainly based on assumptions from a limited amount of information, with no additional context or evidence to support them. *When making sweeping or extremely significant changes to an established and/or popular character or verse, please make a Content Revision Thread first so that it may be evaluated by the Staff and the community at large to ensure that it falls within our guidelines. *To get better input in a content revision thread, inspect the Knowledgeable Members List for people who know much about a franchise, and leave polite notices on their message walls that ask them to participate in the discussion. *Don't repeatedly quote each other back-and-forth within the forums or message walls. This easily creates a long line of massive posts that make the threads nearly unreadable. *Generally try to avoid derailing content revision discussion threads from the original topic, We cannot deal with too many different subjects at once, so it is usually better to start a new thread instead. *The edit sessions generally expire after about 20 minutes, so if you write very long posts, please remember to first save them in a separate text editing program, so they do not disappear after your hard work writing them. *Wiki members who are not a part of the staff should not attempt to close threads, as doing so will only result in that it is removed from public view instead. Franchise-Specific Rules *Don't complain about Dragon Ball power ratings without explicit feats from the new anime series. We have heard all of the arguments many times before, and are so sick and tired of constantly dealing with it that bringing them up has turned into a block-worthy offence. *Given that the only explicit gauges that we have to scale the tiers by are from Frieza's first form, and Super Perfect Cell, we had to estimate roughly where in-between that all of the characters would fit during these time periods, as this was the least bad available option. We have spent a massive amount of time arguing about this, and are not willing to waste any more further rearranging the statistics. *Also do not ask about why we placed Buu saga DBZ characters in the same tier as Super Perfect Cell. The upper border of this tier is roughly a trillion times higher than the bottom. *Do not discuss about Fusion Reborn Super Saiyan 3 Goku shaking the afterlife, Janemba reality warping and Anime Buuhan Vice Shout'' ''as they were discussed and debunked countless times. *Do not complain about Skinny Buu not being scaled to Goku. After his fight with Basil, he fought against a casual suppressed Goku, but he quickly lost this form and started to sleep again. All of this points to a gag routine and not serious feats. *Please do not create new discussion threads complaining about the Dragon Ball Super characters being upgraded to 3-A based on Base Goku's revision, as the topic has been discussed to exhaustion at this point and every thread tends to be a repeat of the last one. The characters who became Universal have demonstrated legitimate scaling to be upgraded, while the characters who didn't have not. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the thread being locked. *Also, do not try to upgrade the Gods of Destruction to 2-C based on the outcome of a hypothetical Champa and Beerus fight destroying their respective universes, as the statement likely referred to them destroying all the matter within their universes, with no proof of space-time being affected. *Do not create new discussion threads trying to upgrade Vegito to Low 2-C via scaling from Kefla or Infinite Zamasu. This topic has been discussed to the point of becoming tiresome and monotonous. Vegito has no indication of scaling to either and the proposal would be unfounded without further proof. *Please refrain from making content revision threads on Dragon Ball Super, as recently we have received an extreme number of them and the staff has got tired of the subject due to how numerous they are. Preferably, comment on already existing threads, if you can, in order to elevate this issue. *Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before , and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel, or time manipulation. *Regarding Yhwach from Bleach, there have been statements in some chapters misusing the term omnipotence and omniscience (quite common in fiction). Please note that a franchise that does not have anything indicating beyond planet level feats will NOT be upgraded to Tier 2 or above under any circumstances. *Also, please do not try use Gin Ichimaru's supposed Bankai speed to support a speed upgrade, as this discussion has grown tiresome from being repeatedly argued and debunked. *Please do not attempt to upgrade Bleach to 5-B again. This has been discussed to exhaustion throughout discussion threads numbering literal thousands of posts, and eventually we finally reached the conclusion that the collapse / merging of Earth, Soul Society and Hueco Mundo is not a direct feat, but rather a natural collateral-effect of the flow of souls being unbalanced , and as such characters cannot scale to it. *Please do not make Revision Threads attempting to make the Bleach Memories of Nobody Movie Canon, based on the inclusion of the Valley of Screams on Chapter 627. This has been discussed twice before, and rejected until new official statements from Tite Kubo appear. *The possibility for Madara Uchiha and the rest of the Naruto franchise characters to move at light speed has already been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Currently, any repetition of said discussion is highly annoying and not subject to discussion. *Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Kaguya and Momoshiki to Star level or above. We have exhausted the topic and decided it's inconsistent with the franchise's overall showing of power and thus it is now typically viewed as an outlier. Also, it was similarly decided that Kaguya should not be granted planet level attack potency for her casual attacks, as the only scene where this rating would be warranted is strife with PIS and a lack of feats, thus forcing us to rate her at this level only via the Expansive Truth-Seeker Ball. Insistence of this will be unappreciated. Also, although at least one of her pocket realms was confirmed to contain a star, the relative size of it was deemed questionable, and it was discarded as a result. *The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or questionable hyperbole. *Please delay the making of content revisions based on the Boruto manga until a particular, relevant arc has concluded. The manga is still in the beginning stages of development making it difficult to accurately review feats. *Do not try to level up Johnny Joestar from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure to 2-A just because he "hits with the force of infinite universes". This is an extremely biased and contradicted interpretation of how his powers work. Also do not try to upgrade Giorno Giovanna beyond Low 2-C. He was placed where he is post consultation from DarkLK, who devised the tiering system in effect. *Don't attempt to upgrade S-class characters in Yu Yu Hakusho to planet busters, as this has also previously been discussed over and over and has turned redundant. *And please do not attempt to upgrade Upper S-class characters in Yu Yu Hakusho to Continent level or Multi-Continent level. This has been discussed time and again and rejected due to a complete lack of feats on this level, and also because it would blatantly abuse the in-universe power level system. *Please avoid trying to upgrade To Aru characters to Tier 1-A or above, as this is also highly contradicted by other parts of this work of fiction. *Do NOT post any threads or comments about Saitama being limitless, omnipotent, or that "he is a gag character who is never meant to lose". This is an illogical line of reasoning that does not fit in with our system, employs a very liberal use of no-limits fallacy, and defeats the base purpose of indexing character statistics. Please note that due to the highly repetitive nature of this particular discussion, failure to follow this rule may result in a block without any particular warning. *Avoid trying to upgrade Saitama to Star level based on statements from the databook. It has been discussed repeatedly that there are two translations for the Japanese word 星 (Hoshi). It can mean either Planet or Star, and the former is far more consistent with the events of the story and Saitama's own statements. *Don't argue about Elder God Demonbane being "beyond omnipotence". For one thing, that is not conceptually possible, and for another, it is still dependent on using the sleeping Azathoth as a power source. We are not going to change its tier. *Do not attempt to upgrade The Presence/Yahweh from DC Comics to tier 0, simply because he is stated to be omnipotent and is the verse's depiction of the monotheistic god. This topic has been discussed extensively in the past, and it has been concluded that the Presence has shown far too many limitations (Such as equals or near equals in power in Elaine Belloc and The Great Evil Beast, stating that he was created by human imagination, being mere fiction to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, being severely damaged by Gabriel Hornblower, and being healed by Michael Demiurgos) to be ranked as anything beyond his 1-A rating. Also keep in mind that statements of omnipotence are never accepted as proof. *Do not attempt to upgrade Dormammu, Umar, Eternity, and all of the other Marvel Comics cosmic entities to tier 1-A, based on a single mention within the 2005 "Defenders" series, given that it would enormously contradict virtually everything else known about the characters. In addition, a 1-A fictional environment does not remotely automatically translate to the nature of any characters present within it, or plenty of much weaker characters would qualify as well. *Do not attempt to upgrade The Living Tribunal to 1-A. As the sum totality of the abstract entities within the Marvel multiverse it is explicitly a creature constructed of space and time, and as such cannot exceed High 1-B per definition. Any handbook comparisons with Oblivion are considered as unreliable and ill-considered, as Oblivion explicitly vastly transcends such limitations. *Also do not attempt to upgrade Galactus to 1-A, based on "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars". The story is not a part of continuity any more than "Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet" or "Captain America and the Korvac Saga", which were released in conjunction, as part of the same imprint. In addition, if you read the entire comicbook, rather than an out-of-context scan, you clearly see that the Enchantress is not referring to Galactus being beyond all concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether, but about his infinite real size compared to the cosmos, how he can affect lots of different aspects of existence with his reality-warping powers, and since she and Spider-Man are strictly physical entities, they only perceive a small part of his entire being. See here for more information. It would also contradict everything else that we know about Galactus. *Do not attempt to scale Thanos from the Phoenix Force, Galactus, the Celestials, and Odinforce Thor, based on 2016 and 2017 storylines within his own comicbook series. These are fairly typical extreme Plot-Induced Stupidity outliers. Within the same story, the Silver Surfer was also treated as a threat, and the Hulk survived Thanos' attacks, whereas Galactus did not. We have to attempt to find a certain degree of historical consistency to scale from, even if the Marvel writers recurrently make such a task near impossible to accomplish. *Do not make Marvel Cinematic Universe revision threads discussing scaling Captain America to Iron Man from their fight in the "Civil War" movie, as this has been discussed many times before, and strongly contradicts the established scale of their respective feats. *Do not try to upgrade or set specific tiers to Ajimu Najimi or Iihiko Shishime from Medaka Box. Given that they come from a meta-fictional parody manga, that mostly revolves around deconstructing, circumventing, dissecting, and exaggerating plot conveniences, and does not remotely make sense from a power-scaling perspective, their statistics are too hard to gauge. For the same reasons, also avoid using them in match-up threads. *Do not argue for upgrading Bastard!! characters to be 4-Dimensional, or above. This has been previously handled here, and here. Also, do not argue for upgrading its high tiers to 3-A without solid new evidence. Note that this scan is not sufficient proof to upgrade any of the cast to 3-A, as it was already looked over, discussed, and debunked here, here, and here. *Do not attempt to downgrade the Kirby characters without new evidence and arguments. Among other things, we have discussed the issue here, here, and here. *Also, do not try to upgrade Kirby to 3-B or 3-A via scaling from Magolor. This has been discussed several times, and each thread has proven itself repetitive. As such, it's not up to discussion anymore. *Do not attempt to upgrade Bayonetta to universe level. We have talked extensively about this topic here, here, here, and here. *Please refrain from upgrading Mario and Luigi to Dreamy Bowser and/or the Zeekeeper. The Super Mario Bros franchise has wildly varying statistics and feats across different games, which make powerscaling characters already difficult. Given that this is the second 2-B feat in the entire series, it is generally considered as an outlier. *Do not attempt to upgrade the Toriko character Acacia/Neo to Multi-Galaxy level, based on an Outlier that contradicts every other established feat from the main cast. *Do not attempt to downgrade Avatar characters speeds as the characters were shown to normally master and react to natural lightning. *Please do not attempt to downgrade Kingdom Hearts on the basis of Xemnas' boss fight and subsequent skyscraper throwing. Logic and scaling through the lore is a far better indicator of the series' overall power, as like many RPGs, the vast majority of events lack direct physical destruction or area of effect. *The My Little Pony comicbooks are not considered to automatically be a part of the TV show's canon continuity. Statement by IDW editor Bobby Curnow. Statement from Jim Miller that he has not read the comics, yet, and after doing a bit of reading, that the comics and the show are separate. However, if events involving actual characters from a story or arc in the comics are directly referenced as having happened in the show, then that particular part is clearly canon. *Please avoid creating content revision threads questioning the legitimacy of Sephiroth's supernova feat. It has been discussed several times and accepted as valid. This does not include any future revisions after the Final Fantasy VII remake. *Please do not try to upgrade the Devil May Cry cast to Universal based on Hideki Kamiya's Tweets about Mundus. After much discussion, Universe level Devil May Cry has been rejected and considered unreliable. *Furthermore, do not try to upgrade the Devil May Cry characters to Multi-Solar System level due to Mundus creating a realm containing multiple stars. This has also been brought up numerous times and was passed as either an outlier, and it is questionable if the stars in the background were real or simply an illusion. *Do not try to upgrade any Pokémon trainers, even the strongest and most skilled, to 2-C or 2-B based on them keeping up with the Creation Trio. This has been deemed inaccurate on the basis of Game Mechanics and Plot-Induced Stupidity, and it greatly contradicts what the lore has established. * Please do not make content revision threads attempting to upgrade Darth Vader (Star Wars Legends continuity) to Tier 4 based on Word of God that he is 80% as powerful as Darth Sidious. This has been brought up numerous times (these threads just being two examples), but has been rejected every time by staff members and even trusted non-staff members who are knowledgeable when it comes to Star Wars Legends lore as this statement was given by George Lucas to standalone Vanity Fair article and was explicitly his own opinion, which does not take into account the events of Dark Empire. Also, please do not make content revision threads attempting to upgrade Darth Vader (and other Star Wars Legends characters who scale from him) to Tier 4 based on him surviving for a short while after a few seconds of exposure to Force Lightning from Darth Sidious. This, too, has been brought up and rejected. *The databook entries in Digimon are an exception to the rule as they are primary canon and well woven into the franchise. There is even lore behind the creation in the book in that it is a research book made by interdimensional researchers and as such they are heavily considered when discussing abilities and other information. Other Rules *Site Rules *Editing Rules *Versus Thread Rules *Chat Rules Category:Important Category:Administration